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a couple Q's

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Gniknok
User offline. Last seen 2 years 31 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 06/24/2009

Hey there!

From my first read through, these rules look pretty sweet! I do have a few Q's though, so please bear with me... I'm a big fan of 40k and necromunda, but I've never played Mordheim, which these rules are based on, so please forgive me if I ask something that is actually quite obvious...

First - why can't Krootoxen gain experience? I understand for things like Kroot hounds and Slaaneshi fiends, which are animals and beasts, but a Bloodcrusher can gain experience, as can a Rough Rider, and a Krootexen is, like these, as much a mounted rider as an animal or beast...

Second - what does 'movement enhanced' mean? I Can't find any definition, and the only thing it seems too apply to is that each army is limited to taking only a certain number of models which this quality. Does it have any other meaning than this? Also, it seems to be applied inconsistently... in that some models with jump packs or bikes are considered to be movement enhanced, and others are not, and no beasts or cavalry are ... I don't know if this was intentional or not... if it was, why did you choose to do it like this? It is rather confusing...

Jump troops that do have ME
-Assault marines (all chapters)
-Seraphim
-Raptors
-Swooping Hawks
-Warp Spiders
-Vespid

Jump troops that do not have ME
-Crisis suits and Stealth suits
-Flamers of Tzeentch
-Chaos Furies
-Hellions
-Swooping Hawk and Warp Spider Exarchs
-Wraiths
-Stormboyz
-Gargoyles

Bikes that do have ME
-SM bikes (all kinds and chapters)
-CSM bikes
-Eldar Jetbikes and Shining Spears

Bikes that do not have ME
-Screamers
-DE Reaver Jetbikes
-Necron Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers
-Ork Bikers and Deffkoptas

Thanks!

Nate
User offline. Last seen 2 days 22 hours ago. Offline
Joined: 05/10/2009

Hi Gniknok

Thanks for the questions.

Interesting point regarding the Krootox. Adam and I will sit down and discuss whether to give the Krootox the experience bump. Our initial reaction was that the primary attribute of the krootox is the dumb gorilla, not the rider. But at this point, all things are up for debate. For consistency with other ridden beasts, we may make that change.

Regarding the movement enhancement, is means any bike or jump pack using model - essentially anything that moves more than 6" in the movement phase.

We will have to go over each list to catch them, as your listing clearly points out. The only reason that I can think of for not having it done is that many of the units without that restriction have a availabilit limitation already in place. They should

We are cataloguing these questions and will have them addressed in the next beta. Keep the questions coming.

Regards,
Nate

Gniknok
User offline. Last seen 2 years 31 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 06/24/2009

Thanks Nate!

Its a fair point about the main attributes for Krootoxen coming from the Gorilla, but a rider of any beast has to be able to train his mount to some degree, especially a mount that he's riding into combat. Similarly, not all the stats for the Bloodcrusher are coming from the bloodletter, some are from the juggernaut as well... you get the picture.

Just as an example, in the old Kroot codex (and the new fan-dex, but more on that later...) the army had the option to buy Signature Evolutionary Adaptations. Essentially these meant that the entire army had developed along similar evolutionary paths... While some of the SEA's, like fast reflexes (+1 initiative) and Ork Hybrid +1 toughness could not be taken by units such as Krootoxen and Hounds, because they could not direct their evolution with such intent anymore, other SEA's, such as Bold (+1 Leadership) were available to Krootoxen because they had riders, but were still not available to hounds, as they are 'dumb' beasts.

Perhaps a middle ground would be to allow units like Krootoxen (and maybe some of the other, more intelligent beasts...) to accumulate stat increases from experience, but not to be able to achieve hero status by rolling "lad's got talent". A roll of 10+ would mean they either get to choose an upgrade, or they roll again... just a thought.

Also, and more broadly, I'm interested in developing the rules for a Kroot force a bit further using the fan-dex made by the folks at Kompletely Kroot as a guide. While it is clearly not a legal codex, it has been approved for use at a few independent tournaments in Australia and it is for the most part based on the old chapter approved Kroot Mercs Codex and the newer rules found in IA3 Taros and the Apocalypse books, with a few tweaks to make things work better and make more sense. You can find a link to the codex here:
http://trobarts.customer.netspace.net.au/5th_ed_kroot_mercenaries_army_l...
My gaming group is fine with my using for 40k, and I want to do the same in skirmish, so I'd love any feedback that you folks have on developing a mercs list and keeping it balanced and fair.

Here are my initial thoughts for a kroot Mercs Strike team organization chart (without points):
Hero:
0-1 Master Shaper - Captain
0-1 Prey Shaper - Captain
0-1 Shaman
Shaper
(the Master Shaper may be too powerful though, as most teams are restricted from taking their army's top commanders, in which case maybe one of the shaper's should be allowed to become a captain...)

Henchmen (0-5 each group)
-Kroot Carnivores
-Kroot Hounds (cannot gain experience)

Henchmen (0-3 each group)
-Headhunters
-Hunters
-Stalkers
-Vultures?

Henchmen (0-2 each group)
-Krootoxen (experience?)
-Trackers
(or maybe Vultures or some of the others from above group should go here...)

Henchmen (0-1 each group)
-Knarloc Riders (experience?)

Thoughts, comments criticism?

Cheers!

Gniknok
User offline. Last seen 2 years 31 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 06/24/2009

A few more questions...

pg 7, it says "When a model suffers an unsaved wound roll a d6 and consult the table below"
how does this work with multiple wound models? Do you roll on the table every time they suffer a wound, or only when they lose their last wound? The latter is how I assume it should work, as otherwise what would be the point of taking multiple wound models if they can be put out of action with one shot, but it is unclear...

pg 12, "Heroes have the Skilled Rider and Move Through Cover special rules." should also include "Skilled Flyer," which is exactly the same but applies more appropriately to jump packs...

Markerlights: First, Markerlightrs are not even included in the armoury. This is odd in that the ML is the primary weapon of the Sniper Spotter, and all Pathfinders carry one mounted on their Pulse Carbine. Also, in the codex the leaders of Fire warrior and Stealth teams have the option to buy Markerlights for 10 pts (50 cred)... was this omission on purpose or by accident...?
Second, in the Tau Empire codex, successful Markerlight hits can be used by certain subsequently firing friendly units or independant characters for a variety of purposes, from augmenting Bs, to reducing cover saves, to lowering leadership for pinning checks...
Since you explicitly state that
"Despite moving together, models are never considered to be a “unit” for any other purposes." on pg 5, does this mean that ML hits can only ever be used by single models? Or, is it possible for models who move in coherency as a group to use a single ML hit as if they were a unit?

Drones and Drone Controllers: as above, since models are never considered to be a unit, do drones that are taken by a hero via a drone controller still have to remain within 2" of their controller? And does this affect their unit type, which in the codex is specified as "same as controller"?

And why can't Gretchin gain experience? This seems odd, since they are hardly savage beasts... if I remember correctly, Rebel Grotz in GorkaMorka could gain experience in the same way as orks...

Also, some errors I think I've noticed...

pg 9, under the heading Special Weapons, you refer to Tau Plasma Rifles when I think you mean Tau Pulse Rifles/Carbines and Pistols...

Also, Tau Rail Rifles are not noted as Spcl or Hvy in the weapons list when they clearly should be going by the rules for SW on pg 9.

Nate
User offline. Last seen 2 days 22 hours ago. Offline
Joined: 05/10/2009

Hi Gniknok

Sorry for the slow reply. The team and I have been busy designing 4 scenarios for the Warmaster's Challenge.

Adam and I were already contemplating the addition of the full Kroot Army. We will probably take yours as the template for our work - if you don't mind, of course! We were also thinking a genestealer cult would rock.

Regarding your other questions and comments:
pg 7 - is should say "When a model suffers its last unsaved wound roll a d6 and consult the table below"

pg 12, Skilled Flyer would be a good additional bit of clarification.

The lack of markerlights would be an oversight. Pathfinders definitely start with one. Assume that Shas'ui Heroes can purchase one for 50 credits.

Yes, a markerlight can only be used by one model. At this point, we don't have any rules for group fire. If we to head in that direction, and I don't think we want to, then the markerlight bonus would probably extend outward to the group.

Drones and Drone Controllers - Drones purchased as wargear must stay within coherency and have the same unit type. A gun Drone purchased as a henchmen is not required to maintain coherency.

As for Grots, we thought that a grot that gained experience ought to be treated in the same manner as a goblin in WFB - if they get uppity, they get squashed. orks won't tolerate a grot puttin' on airs...

you are correct about the plasma/pulse error

Rail Rifles should be heavy.

Thanks for the feedback.

Cheers,
Nate

Gniknok
User offline. Last seen 2 years 31 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 06/24/2009

Thanks for the clarifications Nate!

And go right ahead an use any of my ideas for a kroot mercs list, I'll start a new thread on that topic to keep things separate, and update it as I can with ideas for the list, points values, wargear etc.
And I heartily agree about the Genestealer Cult list. My friend and I are getting pretty excited about skirmish 40k, and he's a nid player so we've already tossed around a few ideas for Stealers cults as well. I'll post any ideas we come up with on that as well.

Also, I forgot to specify the main reason I asked about the controlled drones... if they are considered to be the same unit type as the controller, does this mean that the hero confers their move through cover and skilled flyer rule over onto the drone? I think that it should, since if the hero dies the drone dies as well, and since it would be kind of silly for the drone to have to remain in coherency and not gain the movement bonuses (as the hero will definitely be spending lots of time hopping around in difficult terrain to gain a cover save!) ...but as you state specifically in the rules that the hero never confers his movement bonuses over onto other models that he joins I wanted to make sure.

Thanks!

Nate
User offline. Last seen 2 days 22 hours ago. Offline
Joined: 05/10/2009

Hi

Disclaimer - this ruling is not set in stone - I think that allowing the battlesuit to retain MTC and SR while controlling a drone is probably just fine.

This is one that we will need to discuss, and perhaps look to the BGB and Tau Codex for some clarity as to exactly what happens in a normal game of 40K featuring a Suit with Drones.

Cheers,
Nate

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