1850 Ravenwing
Mon, 07/27/2009 - 16:32
I'm seriously toying with the idea of using Ravenwing in the second day of the WMC. Granted they do not have the staying power of the Deathwing, they have the mobility that Deathwing lacks to go for the objectives.
so here is what i came up with:
HQ
Sammael: Land speeder 205pts
Troops
Ravenwing Attack Squadron: 6 Bikes, 2 Flamers; Sarge w/ Power weapon; Attack Bike w/ Multi-melta; Land Speeder w/ Assault Cannon & Heavy Bolter. 395pts
Ravenwing Attack Squadron: 6 Bikes, 2 Flamers; Sarge w/ Power fist; Attack Bike w/ Multi-melta; Land Speeder w/ Assault Cannon & Heavy Bolter. 405pts
Ravenwing Attack Squadron: 6 Bikes, 2 Melta guns; Sarge w/ Power weapon; Attack Bike w/ Multi-melta (or Heavy bolter depending on model); Land Speeder w/ Assault Cannon & Heavy Bolter. 415pts
Fast Attack
Ravenwing Support Squadron: Assault Cannon / Heavy Bolter. 100pts
Ravenwing Support Squadron: Assault Cannon / Multi-Melta. 100pts
Heavy Support
Predator: Autocannon, Heavy Bolter sponsons, Dozer Blade, Extra Armour. 115pts
Predator: Autocannon, Heavy Bolter sponsons, Dozer Blade, Extra Armour. 115pts
Total Points: 1850
Model Count: 29
Mon, 08/03/2009 - 23:29
#2
"First, Deathwing Terminators. The list for both deathwing and ravenwing armies were clearly written with each other in mind. While solo deathwing armies work well, sadly Ravenwing forces not so much. You really lack staying power, especially in the assault phase. While it's true your fast, speed is useless if 20 orks are parked on an objective you need to hold. Deathwing troops are great, even 1 squad is good when dropping in on your teleport homers."
Thing is though, I really don't intend on the ravenwing bikers making it into assault unless i desperately need them to (ie: scouting forward then turn one blasting forward again to assault a unit of crisis suits or something) As for the whole orks on an objective, that is why I have 4 flamers and a bunch of land speeders.
also terminators are fantastic, but 5 terminators in an army where they are not troops and are not fast enough to keep up with the rest of the army actually are worth very little to me. and an expensive point sink for 5 models
"The Land speeders, and lone attack bikes, are really easy kill points..... 8 of them actually. I'd just be shooting at them and ignoring your other units. Sammael is the only lone speeder worth taking. I'd take a squadron of 5, not an easy kill point there. Plus, the heavy flamer is better at anti-hoard than the assault cannon."
The problem with the Squadron of 5 is that while it is one big kill point, i run into some issues there. a) i dont have 3 standard land speeders i only have tornados and b) that is just too unwieldy to be used in a regular sized game. Now granted, the land speeders and attack bikes might be easy kill points... but using the scenerios that we will be for the WMC they are primarily objective based with very little in the way of kill points. Plus while the attack bikes are easily scoring units, the land speeders that are RAS are also scoring according to RAW and INAT.
And while the flamer might be better at anti-hoard, im looking for a more general purpose weapon which is the assault cannon.
"15 point apothecary? Yes please. You get to ignore 1 failed save per turn... worth it when the average cost of your bikers is 37 points. 6" range is pretty cool too."
the problem is though that the apothicary is limited to 6" and the force isnt going to be tightly packed enough to be able to really make it effective.
"Finally, a thought on wound allocation. My Deathwing Command squad(with Beliel) is comprised of 6 different models... so when I get hit by anything nasty I can sink all those rending hits or power weapon attacks on 1 or 2 models.... this has saved my butt more times than I can count. "
i would love to be able to max out on wound allocation for the RAS but it would mean i would have to model chainswords on 1/3 of the bikers.
Tue, 08/04/2009 - 00:57
#3
Posted is my list for most 1850 games(sometimes I take a demolisher for fun and a dreadnought instead of my raider, though the raider just rocks at hitting monstrous creatures, the bane of my existance in Hall of Heroes). It's just what I'm comfortable with, but its packing 25 troops that score(I'd be argueing in a non Warmasters venue that while your codex says the land speeder scores, the main rulebook clearly states that a vehicle that is a troop NEVER scores).
Against some armies I'll outflank the bikers(and since your landspeeder has to be deployed with the bikes, and it can't outflank, can the bikes? The whole unit must be delpoyed together RAW. I've had players in HoH agrue that and win). Other times I perfer to scout move the big squad forward, and drop 2 of my 3 terminator squads right ontop of it on turn 1. Often the 3man combat squad with meltas heads off in search of armour, with the attack bike. The other 3 bikes(with apothecary) stay with the terminators to bolster them with a cover save. That, and the 2 apothecaries within 6" makes for a very hard unit to shift early on. Raider usually runs support, hitting the enemy where it can along with Sammael. I've done really well with this army before, placed in top 3 at a few tournaments and got 1 best overall. It's really my preferance though, just thought I'd post it and my tactics as a comparision for your list. Regardless of your thoughts on the main body of your list, the dozer/extra armour on your predators is wasted points, though you may be hard pressed to spend 40pts elsewhere. Good Luck with your list!
HQ- Beliel w/lightning claws- 130pts
HQ- Sammael on land speeder- 205pts
Troops- Deathwing Terminators- 300pts
5, assault cannon, chainfist, standard, apothecary
Troops- Deathwing Terminators- 250pts
5, assault cannon, chainfist
Troops- Deathwing Terminators- 240pts
5, cyclone missile launcher, chainfist
Troops- Ravenwing Bike Squadron- 330pts
6, 2 melta-guns, power fist, apothecary, attack bike w/ multi-melta
Troops- Ravenwing Bike Squadron- 135pts
3, 2 flamers, melta-bombs
Heavy Support- Land Raider- 250 pts
Tue, 08/04/2009 - 06:13
#4
"(I'd be argueing in a non Warmasters venue that while your codex says the land speeder scores, the main rulebook clearly states that a vehicle that is a troop NEVER scores).
The reason I am going by RAW for this though is that the BRB is commonly refering that if the codex says differently than you go by the codex. If the land speeders arent scoring than the ravenwing bikers can turbo boost while scouting, Daemonhunter Force weapons cause instant death and not just "slay instantly" plus many other examples.
You cannot pick and choose which codex takes trumps BRB, its either all or none.
As for outflanking with teh speeders, i really have no problem with that as im not a huge fan of outflank anyways... completely random and has lost me games before. Like the 'Ard boyz round 3, i lost the game because i outflanked a squadron and it came out on the wrong side of the table, preventing me from destroying his unit on the objective and me jumping on it on the last turn.
Tue, 08/04/2009 - 08:47
#5
I feel like you're slightly low on AV stuff...maybe one of the power weapons could become a fist and/or the HB on the support squadron could become another multimelta. Or perhaps that's just the noob in me talking :)
Testors
Tue, 08/04/2009 - 14:34
#6
"The reason I am going by RAW for this though is that the BRB is commonly refering that if the codex says differently than you go by the codex. If the land speeders arent scoring than the ravenwing bikers can turbo boost while scouting, Daemonhunter Force weapons cause instant death and not just "slay instantly" plus many other examples."
Im my humble opinion I perfer that all players use the most recent version of the rules, though that is not possible in competetive play. I've always hated an old codex with "outdated" rules... and players who play by them because thier better(I'm looking at all you space wolves players out there!). It's just something that's come up previously for me. The actually ruling at a venue was that if they wanted my speeder to score they'd have put that in the Main Rule Book... as they did with the smoke launchers entry regarding older codexs, or the Universal Rules section that states you use your codex. May be an oversite on the GW guys part, though I doubt it. Again, you do what you must in a tourny though, the rules are the rules and that's what has to apply. Just not everybody uses INIT though, and rightly so as some of thier stuff is just plain stupid, it reflects how "they" feel the game should be played.
RAW is ok sometimes, but they pick and choose how it will apply, making "rules changes" to "fix" some things but not others? My apothecary in DA cannont ignore a failed save(though it's RAW they can) on a vehicle in cover, but my Eldar can fortune a unit of war walkers in cover? Or a wave serpent moving flat out? Common sense should prevail I guess. Just my two cents though :)
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Agrees with Testors though that anti-tank may be a problem, with all those damn russes out there now. That's what commonly gives me headaches, or an army heavy in the monstrous creatures department. MM are good for that though, or the 130pt pred with auto/las sponsons in lieu of the anti-horde version.
Tue, 08/04/2009 - 16:49
#7
Anyways, moving away from the RAW discussion lol
"Agrees with Testors though that anti-tank may be a problem, with all those damn russes out there now. That's what commonly gives me headaches, or an army heavy in the monstrous creatures department. MM are good for that though, or the 130pt pred with auto/las sponsons in lieu of the anti-horde version."
Really russes do not scare me any more. either I can take them out at range with melta's / assault cannons, or I take them out in combat with the fists i have and Krak Grenades to the rear armour. really the main pieces of armour that does worry me are walkers and land raiders.
Wed, 08/05/2009 - 01:20
#8
One way I have gotten around that in my list is usually outflank. Large groups of tanks, or war walkers have a hard time with a unit that can pop out and hit them on the flank, though as you've said outflank itself is fickle.
I live by a pair of auto-cannon/lascannon predators in my chaos army. 130pts, and 4 dedicated shots per turn at monsterous creatures or lighter groups of armour.
The land raiders as always are a problem, though with a few melta-guns you should be ok. The speeders would almost be better with some multi-meltas perhaps?
Wed, 08/05/2009 - 18:30
#9
one of the support speeders actually does have a melta. that one i am more willing to move faster with as it only has 5 shots as opposed to 7
Wed, 08/12/2009 - 15:16
#10
had to make a slight change to the list purely from a WYSIWYG aspect. the predators don't have dozer blades, they have pintle mounted stormbolters just to fill in the points. (plus 2 more shots a piece cant hurt)
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Having played more games than I can count with my beloved Deathwing/Ravenwing list I'll add my thoughts.
First, Deathwing Terminators. The list for both deathwing and ravenwing armies were clearly written with each other in mind. While solo deathwing armies work well, sadly Ravenwing forces not so much. You really lack staying power, especially in the assault phase. While it's true your fast, speed is useless if 20 orks are parked on an objective you need to hold. Deathwing troops are great, even 1 squad is good when dropping in on your teleport homers.
The Land speeders, and lone attack bikes, are really easy kill points..... 8 of them actually. I'd just be shooting at them and ignoring your other units. Sammael is the only lone speeder worth taking. I'd take a squadron of 5, not an easy kill point there. Plus, the heavy flamer is better at anti-hoard than the assault cannon.
15 point apothecary? Yes please. You get to ignore 1 failed save per turn... worth it when the average cost of your bikers is 37 points. 6" range is pretty cool too.
Extra armour and dozer blades are probibly not needed on those predators... do they really plan to move?
Finally, a thought on wound allocation. My Deathwing Command squad(with Beliel) is comprised of 6 different models... so when I get hit by anything nasty I can sink all those rending hits or power weapon attacks on 1 or 2 models.... this has saved my butt more times than I can count.