Horrorfexes- Leadership and Pinning
Wed, 09/09/2009 - 10:28
Was just wondering what the stand was for the ruling of the Horrorfex here.
As per written, it causes units to take a Ld test. Or become pinned. So, a Ld test. Therefore? Will affect Fearless units that pass Morale.
I have seen some controversy, of course that surrounds the raw of this rule. I just want to be oin the same page as warmasters... I would like to get used to use it in the way that it it will be used in the tourney.
Wed, 09/09/2009 - 23:40
#2
In regards to ignoring the phrase "being pinned":
Tau players have been able to effectively shoot at 2 different targets with a sinlge unit for the same reason... the phrase "target priority" which no longer exists. They are called on to take a test(which previously was like a leadership test) and if they pass they can shoot at another target than thier unit. Now, since there is no "target priority" in the 5th ed book they just go ahead without the test. It doesn't exist, so has no effect on the game. I'm ok with this in the RAW(though GW should FAQ it to taking a leadership test, but they won't).
Same would apply here, the Horrorfex should be FAQ'd to "causeing a pinning test" or change the weapon summery to "Pinning". Though again, GQ is unlikely to do so(especially with the new DE codex in the works) so I guess we as players either use RAW or "common sense"... though much like GW actually fixing these issues that will probibly never happen. For now it causes a unit to "become pinned" and unless your codex clarifies what that is, or I missed it and it's in the rulebook itself it will have no effect on the game, other than making my Berzerkers "pinned", but other than that will not stop them from acting normally.
The INIT FAQ v2.2 kinda touches on this with it's entry for "lash of submission". It talks about how the Chaos codex says I cannot lash a "pinned" unit, as does the FAQ on GW's site. This states that since "pinned" no longer exists(and both the codex and GW FAQ are written in 4th ed) I am permitted to lash it again, cause it's not "pinned" it's "gone to ground". "Pinned" no longer exists and has no effect on the game. The only difference is that Lash actually causes a "pinning test", so it still may cause a unit to "go to ground", though I can keep moving it again with another Lash. The only mention I could find on GW's site or in the INIT FAQ to Horrorfex was that it's not "defensive", it's a "Main" weapon. It says nothing regarding your pinning/gone to ground status of the weapon.
Again, I think the exact wording of your Horrorfex is key here. That and the fact that I can't find a reference to "pinned" in the rulebook, which doesn't mean it's not there, just means I'm to lazy to check any more pages regarding this :)
Thu, 09/10/2009 - 08:55
#3
When this came up at Phoenix...we hit upon the same thing that McBeath pointed out.
Option A) If players want to go for RAW...the weapon does nothing at all. Because "pinned" is not a rule in the game so it doesn't effect any unit ever.
Option B) If players want to apply some intent...then Fearless units shouldn't be effected because they cannot be forced to ground through a pinning check.
Our local group @ phoenix went with option B in order to keep it fair to both sides of the game. That is, the item is still useful to Dark Eldar and the Fearless special rule still has impact for their opponents.
I will discuss this with Nate tonight and we'll add it to the FAQ for an official ruling for the tournament.
Later,
Greg
Thu, 09/10/2009 - 09:26
#4
Yeah, as long as somebody didn't try to effect my fearless unit with it I'd be ok with allowing them to use it... otherwise I'd insist that it did nothing. To bad that GW won't take the time to adjust thier FAQ's regarding this, or similar issues.
Thu, 09/10/2009 - 21:40
#5
I agree. Option B seems to be the way to go. As for Pinning, A pinning test is a king of LD test. That fearless units ignore. Seems reasonable to me.
Thu, 09/17/2009 - 09:53
#6
OK, I am reviving this discussion.
As for being pinned not existing. It clearly states in the Rulebook FaQ, that a reference to a unit being "pinned" is basically a unit that has gone to ground. So, the question still stands, as fearless models only pass morale. A horror may tecnicaly "pin" a fearless unit due tot he fact that it forces a leadership.
Thu, 09/17/2009 - 10:03
#7
The rulebook FAQ states that a unit may be pinned by going to ground due to failing a pinning check... It would seem to imply that regardless of the exact wording of your wargear that indeed it is a "pinning test" instead of a "leadership" test due to the fact that it caused pinning.
Fearless units pass all pinning tests they take... therefore they cannot be pinned as they don't go to ground.
Do you really think that GW intended fearless models to take pinning checks and be pinned or are you trying to use "the letter of the law to defeat the spirit of the law?"
Thu, 09/17/2009 - 12:04
#8
Ridvan,
Great home work cause this makes it nice and clear:
Q. If I find a reference to a unit that is ‘pinned’,
does it mean a unit that has gone to ground?
A. Yes, ‘pinned’ is simply a short way of saying
‘gone to ground by failing a pinning test’.
This is the Q&A out of the FAQ.
Note: It does not say Pinned = gone to ground. It says pinned = gone to ground by failing a pinning test. This means in order to be pinned, you have to fail a pinning test. Thus Fearless units cannot be pinned, because they cannot fail a pinning test.
By Agruing strict reading in an attempt to get the fearless unit it is clear the horrorfex does absolutely nothing.
A unit is forced to take a leadership test or become pinned. If it fails a leadership test, the unit still hasn't failed a pinning test to be forced into going to ground.
So you are still left with the two options presented above:
A) Intent -For which it doesn't make sense fearless units would be pinned.
or
B) RAW - Horrorfex does nothing at all.
Later,
Greg
Thu, 09/17/2009 - 15:39
#9
I do see all points. I have never tried, nor will try... to "pin" a Fearless unit. Personally I think its a dumb Idea. This is a debate that is raging on a few other forums, my stance is for the above mentioned. I just had not come around the FaQ thats all.
Thanks.
Cheers!
For clarity, and to avoid any confusion, will Warmasters council be reading the rule as intended? or will they make that piece or wargear obsolete... just so I can move things around on my list. Personally I think that RAI applies here.
Cheers
Thu, 09/17/2009 - 18:16
#10
Not that I have any say at all regarding the matter, I'd like to see it "warmasters FAQ'd" to just change the wording to "pinning test" so that it is still usable by a player who would like to use it "as intended". Just my thoughts.
Who's online
There are currently 0 users and 9 guests online.
Pg 75 universal special rules:
"Fearless troops automatically pass all morale and pinning tests they are required to take, and will never fall back."
Pinning on pg 31:
"If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately take a pinning test. This is a normal leadership test."
Bottom Paragragh, same entry:
"If the special rules of a unit specify that the unit can never be pinned, the unit always automatically passes Pinning tests."
Now, you could probibly argue that because your codex says so(and was written how many editions ago) that you should still be able to force a fearless unit to take that test.
I'd argue against that personally... as being a bit of a bastard I'd argue that RAW your Horrorfex causes me to take a leadership test, not a pinning test. So I take the test, which lets say I fail. What happens? I become Pinned, which isn't in the 5th ed book. A failed pinning test doesn't pin a unit, it "forces it to go to ground." as per 5th ed rules. Your failed leadership test forces me to "become pinned" not "go to ground". Since there is no "pinned" in the rulebook(much like target priority) I'd just ignore the effects, because they no longer exist. They have been replaced with "going to ground" which is either voluntary or not per the pinning rules in the weapons summery on pg 31. Now this is crappy RAW(which I hate) but if you insisted on using the codex as written that's what I'd say.
Actually, RAW for your codex would seem to make Horrorfexes useless against everybody, unless they change it to say "go to ground" or reword it to "pinning test".
I'd like to point out that I don't own your Codex, so I don't know the exact wording of your wargear... this is just based on whats posted above regarding your weapon effects.